Sami Tauber, Chief Metaverse Officer, VNCCII

Transcript

Nick Abrahams:

Today, ladies and gentlemen, I am delighted to have a real superstar of Web3 on with me. Let’s just look at some of the accolades of my guest, whose name is Sami Tauber. We’ll talk about the accolades in a moment. Sami, welcome to the show.

Sami Tauber:

Thank you so much for having me. I’m honored to be here.

Nick Abrahams:

It’s very kind. I’ve just grabbed a few of the things that you’ve won in the past year or so, but Chief Metaverse Officer of the Year, that’s big. One of the top Women Thought Leaders of the Future for Metaverse and Web3, and also top 10 personality disrupting the music industry and the most dynamic entrepreneur from the entertainment industry. Sammy, that’s a lot going on in your world.

Sami Tauber:

Thank you. Thank you so much.

Nick Abrahams:

I guess you’re a storyteller, an inventor, company founder, award-winning multimedia artist. Lots of achievements there. Maybe to give the rest of us mere mortals a bit of an understanding as to how all this came about. Could you give us a sense of what has been the story? How did you get here?

Sami Tauber:

Thank you firstly for the kind words, and I just want to preface it by saying that I believe we’re all inherently entrepreneurial and creative,-

Nick Abrahams:

Right.

Sami Tauber:

… so thank you. My story has just been one of hard work and persistence. And sticking by a vision, but also a passion for the future. I would say a positive pragmatist for the future.

Nick Abrahams:

Yeah.

Sami Tauber:

I believe in what we call a protopia because I inherently don’t believe there’s anything that exists like a utopia. But obviously, I would not like a dystopia, so protopia seems like the way to go. I’ve always been passionate about technology and creativity, so fusing those two together and the symbiosis is where I believe I sit with my company, VNCCII, and just my mission, vision, and purpose for being and what I do with my time.

My story is, in 2018, I created my company, VNCCII. It was inspired by Leonardo da Vinci, the famous polymath. I think I chose that name as well because my brain works like a lateral thinker, and it’s quite divergent and also creative. I love embracing the inventor’s mindset and just not siloing into a box and coloring it outside the lines, as Mike Pell would say. It just felt like an appropriate name to call the company as an aspiration for a way of life or a way to pursue my life. Then that name itself became inspiring, I trademarked it, and it became my North Star for how I wanted to approach all the content that I create.

In 2018, I was looking for an identity for the company beyond just my own personality, and I was interested in the convergence of the gaming and the music industry. I’m a storyteller at heart as well, and I love world builders like George Lucas or Walt Disney and people that have created IP from nothing and-

Nick Abrahams:

That’s true.

Sami Tauber:

… built franchises and worlds, so I was like, “What character could resemble this and personify this project?”

I love superheroes as well, so I was like, “Let’s make this 3D, a futuristic, galactic superhero character that can become the face of the company and my North Star creative muse for all the content that I create.” It’s by no stretch, a new phenomenon. You’ve seen the Gorillaz.

Nick Abrahams:

Yeah.

Sami Tauber:

They personified their music-

Nick Abrahams:

Who don’t?

Sami Tauber:

… project as virtual avatars, but I was interested in really covering all forms of multimedia and building a world and a story and franchising it out, so that has been how I’ve dedicated my time since 2018.

It very much started in the music industry, which is my main gig, but I also have expanded beyond that to create all forms of content leveraging game engine technology such as Unreal Game Engine and thinking about how I can bring this story to a live stage show as well, which I can talk about later. But I guess that’s been my story, just always trying new things and experimenting with technology in almost a DIY style as a creator with an inventor’s mindset.

Nick Abrahams:

You’ve got VNCCII, the company, which sounds like we describe it as a production company, I guess, in more traditional speak in terms of that’s the company through which you put your content and your creations. Then you’ve got your alter ego, which is the superhero heroine, VNCCII, the avatar. Do you perform in as both as Sami in real life, or is all of your performance now VNCCII?

Sami Tauber:

That’s a great question, so thank you for asking that. It’s funny because people are now instantly recognizing this character, which looks nothing like me by design. It’s meant to be something that people can see themselves in. I’m inspired by classic characters like Spider-Man and people dressing up and cosplaying. And that’s very much the easy piece.

Nick Abrahams:

A little bit of a Barbarella thing going on there.

Sami Tauber:

Exactly. But I’ve always been a physical performer as well, since I was three years old, so my vision and what I’m actively doing is marrying the physical and the digital world together. And I guess this is how we connect this with the metaverse because, yes, the metaverse is the next iteration of the internet, the spatial web is gamified, real-time persistent, joint value creation. But it’s not just virtual reality or the digital world. It’s equally as important, the physical world, unless what’s the point?

That is part of my mission. So when I perform, it could be just the character piloted by a motion capture. But what I enjoy the most is performing, like cosplaying, you could say, in character, as VNCCII, live, physically, as myself on stage. Then the other actors on the stage, whether they’re the dancers or the musicians, they could be dressed up as part of this world that I’ve created and built. So it feels more like a metaverse musical rather than just a typical pop artist’s music show that you’d go to because you are walking into a story.

Nick Abrahams:

This is a little bit off script, but I was reading some interesting research the other day. It asked the question of, though it had many thousands of respondents, do you feel more yourself online or offline?

There was the staggering part about it, particularly for a Gen X like me, was that 45% of the Gen Z and Millennials said they felt more themselves online than offline. Because Gen X don’t understand that, and certainly the Boomers do not understand that. Do you have a view on that? Are there thoughts? Do you think that sounds about right?

Sami Tauber:

It’s an interesting question because I believe that maybe if there was a research study, it showed that. Because young people spend so much time online, and as we could say the metaverse is already technically here with Gen Z, roadblocks, all of these virtual platforms, and the gamified economy. In terms of feeling more yourself online, I can’t answer that for everybody. But for me, definitely as a creative, I feel like I’ve really discovered and explored more multidimensional aspects of my creativity thanks to the online world. That just is not possible physically. I don’t look like my avatar character, and nor would I want to be that in real life. For me, it’s a pure creative pursuit. It’s almost like character acting, and it’s exploring different sides of yourself.

But that being said, I learned recently that the word avatar is such an old word and, it comes from the ancient Sanskrit word avatara, which means descent. So technically, our physical human bodies, you could perceive that as already being avatars because it’s our consciousness in our physical human bodies. What’s the difference, then, of projecting that consciousness into these digital beings?

They just maybe are expressed differently or don’t look one-to-one as your digital self. You don’t have to be a digital twin in the online world. I guess that is the beautiful side of all of this and the metaverse, that it’s limitless and possibilities for how you choose to express yourself.

Nick Abrahams:

Such a fantastic way of thinking about it. One of the things that I love about whether it’s Web3, the metaverse or indeed even AI, is that it’s interesting for people who like to think about what is consciousness and so forth, and where does that all take us? And I love the idea that the human body actually is an avatar in and of itself. That’s brilliant.

Now you’ve also got a vodcast show, so you are the first podcast show host that I’ve ever interviewed on Mac. It’s called Future Humans. Can you talk a little bit about how that works? What’s the nature of a podcast show?

Sami Tauber:

Thank you for asking that question. That show was born during the pandemic,-

Nick Abrahams:

I’d thought you’d think of that.

Sami Tauber:

… because, of course, I was looking for new ways to experiment, connect with people, and have really interesting conversations. Obviously, I’m a deep thinker. I love philosophy, creativity, futurism, so I was like, “Let’s get some really interesting guests on the show.” Around the time of the pandemic, we were seeing the rise in popular culture in terms of discussions around the metaverse and Web3, so I just thought it’d be an interesting time to start a show.

But what was cool was, I’m obviously not as my human self in the show. I’m as the VNCCII character, so it became a fun project for me in the pandemic of how do I speak as her and animate her live. Obviously, to do that, I utilize motion capture, so I got an indie mocap suit and a Rokoko suit and got my iPhone to capture my face data. Then basically streamed live out of Unreal Game Engine into any application that you would like, whether it’s YouTube, Twitch, or Zoom. That’s how I am able to appear as the VNCCII character.

I just thought it’d be an interesting experiment to talk to humans, but as a virtual character, about these topics, hence the title Future Humans. It’s quite ironic because, obviously, I forgot to mention, but the VNCCII character is a fictional, super-sentient awakened AI character.

Nick Abrahams:

Right.

Sami Tauber:

That’s the storyline around her, because I was inspired by Nick Bostrom because he’s into AI, obviously, and about his book,-

Nick Abrahams:

Lovely. Bostrom, so many thoughts.

Sami Tauber:

… Superintelligence.

Nick Abrahams:

Yeah.

Sami Tauber:

I was thinking. I also read The Singularity is Nearer by Ray Kurzweil and thinking about the technological singularity and thinking, “AI’s going to affect all spectrums of the world and all industries, especially as a creative.” So what would it be like putting as much passion, love, and a multidimensional character into this fictional AI being, but it happens to be all the contents written by a human and piloted by a human? It’s quite ironic.

I might expand and license it out to have AI versions of her in the future. But I really am mindful that I want to bring as much humanity to this fictional AI being as possible for the purpose of questioning what is a future human and what’s our relationship with AI shouldn’t be. There’s two choices, love or fear, so I’m trying to embrace a more love mindset, more viewing AI as a symbiotic partner.

Right now, it’s really just a tool, generative AI. But in fiction land of, where we could be going, where AI could be going if it became more sentient, what would that relationship be like with humans?

Anyway, that was the inspiration for the title of the vodcast show, Future Humans. I started off with Cathy Hackl as my first guest.

Nick Abrahams:

Has to.

Sami Tauber:

The god.

Nick Abrahams:

Bless him.

Sami Tauber:

The godmother of the metaverse.

Nick Abrahams:

Absolutely.

Sami Tauber:

Then I’ve had other iconic people like Amy Peck and, of course,-

Nick Abrahams:

Oh, good.

Sami Tauber:

… Mike Pell, of which you’ve had on your show.

Nick Abrahams:

Yeah.

Sami Tauber:

That’s how I’ve grown my network in this space from the time of the pandemic. It really opened up my world to having these really stimulating conversations and meeting all these people. But what was really interesting is, and I’m sure you would know this too, after you interview a certain amount of people, you realize a common denominator, thread, and line of best fit, which is that everyone wants a better future. And the way they manifest that might be in different industries, but there’s this collective understanding that any old model that might be broken, not only do we want to fix it, but we want to think of new models and ways of empowering everybody.

Nick Abrahams:

In fact, I got into a little bit of a tussle on social media today on AI. Someone was… Because I was talking about how I’d been using a particular solution and how impressed I’d been with it. And they just wanted to attack me because it was going to make the world a worse place, and so forth. I completely understand that mindset. But equally, I think certainly as you seem to come at it from a positive place. You mentioned Nick Bostrom. Have you thought much about simulation theory and so forth, and whether we are in fact living in a sim? Is that something you’ve explored from a creative point of view?

Sami Tauber:

Definitely. I wouldn’t think we are living in a simulation. But it depends on how you define a simulation, whether it’s an organic or an inorganic one. I’m really interested in quantum. I just read this fascinating book called The Quantum Economy. Reality is beyond our understanding.

Nick Abrahams:

Yeah.

Sami Tauber:

As Albert Einstein said, “There’s two things that are infinite, the universe of human stupidity.” And I’m not quite sure about the universe, so I take a leap from that book. I have no idea what truth with a capital T is, but what’s exciting about futurism and technology is that you can question these fundamental understandings and nature of our reality. Obviously, as a creative, it’s a sandbox and a playground of creativity and ideas, so it definitely does inform concepts behind the content that I create.

Nick Abrahams:

Now, you’ve spent a lot of time in the music industry, I think we’ve seen particularly the concept of music and the metaverse come together reasonably, strongly. And last year, in fact, MTV had the first ever Metaverse music award, so it clearly a part of the zeitgeist. But can you give us a bit of a sense, where do you think the music industry will be taken by Web3 and the metaverse?

Sami Tauber:

I love that question, and I’ve been asked that quite a bit. I feel like, from an artist’s point of view, the traditional model of a label giving an advance and having to pay that back and being basically at service to the label is long gone. That still exists, but there’s just so many other ways to access an audience. For instance, with the metaverse, you don’t even necessarily have to have a physical presence or perform in real life to grow your fan base.

There’s so many ways to do virtual concerts and live-streaming that it’s all of a sudden you’re not relying on these traditional platforms. I won’t name them, but the wall gardens, you don’t own your audience and the data of that audience now, especially with Web3, it’s opening up via the blockchain, programmable smart contracts, and ways to monetize your content through what we call the creator ownership economy.

That’s really empowering for creatives, and that’s obviously affecting the future of the music industry. It’s the combination of the Web3 technology as well as the metaverse in ways to build an audience that might have not been the traditional way to build an audience. We’ve even seen with industries like digital fashion, people will value that, and connecting that even to the music industry and selling digital merch for avatars. They call it the direct-to-avatar economy, is that the next direct-to-consumer?

Nick Abrahams:

Right.

Sami Tauber:

It’s been lateral in ways of how you can think about not just monetizing your creations but also finding new ways to activate an audience and allow them to co-create with you. It doesn’t have to be like they’re on the receiving end and listening to the song via a streaming service. All of a sudden, there’s so many ways for them to have their own identity, whether it’s an avatar identity and maybe they meet up in real life as well, a presence, and be able to express themselves online and maybe help co-create the world for the artists. It’s limitless in possibilities. And that is fundamentally disrupting the music industry.

Nick Abrahams:

It’s brilliant. Now I know that VNCCII is aiming on working with more mainstream organizations, and as you’re aware, the purpose of this particular podcast is really to talk to mainstream audiences about Web3 and what the opportunities are. How are you planning to work with mainstream companies?

Sami Tauber:

Recently, I performed at the BRITs for the BRITs week, I headlined a show and it was sponsored by MasterCard.

Nick Abrahams:

Okay.

Sami Tauber:

Here’s an example of a mainstream brand interested in the future of Web3 and the Metaverse, so part of that gig that I did, the headlining was, as well, promoting what they’re launching. They’ve just launched, actually, the Web3 accelerator program for music artists partnered with Polygon,-

Nick Abrahams:

Right.

Sami Tauber:

… so it’s showing a new revenue model for artists that maybe don’t need to anymore go down the traditional label path and ways to monetize their content and build a Web3 audience, and MasterCard is helping with that. It was very, very much an honor to be approached by them and become an ambassador for that and, as well, the Metaverse.

The way with the VNCCII company, I’m looking to work with Web3 as well as mainstream brands, is very much around multimedia IP and creating a world while building franchise building based around a story. As I mentioned earlier, my North Star is a franchise like Star Wars. So it starts with the VNCCII character because that’s the lower-hanging fruit. Because I can be her on stage, and people… That’s how I build up brand awareness.

But beyond that, I’ve just finished writing a science fiction novel, and there’s a diverse cast of characters. It’s a space opera. It’s going to be launched in the metaverse. Definitely, when I wrote it, which was an interesting exercise, I wrote it mindfully that it could be activated in the metaverse as well as real life. I’m really excited about the future of entertainment. I love what Disney do with their theme parks. And obviously, all the patients they get with AR technology, where you don’t need to rely on wearing smart glasses to have an immersive experience.

I love the concept of imagineers, the combination of imagination and engineering, and bringing people from different specialties and industries together to world build. What I think is the most exciting aspect of the metaverse is world building. Then Web3 is purely the tech layer, the substrate for it, and ways to monetize via the blockchain because of its immutability and its transparency. The blockchain-powered open metaverse is definitely the North Star for the VNCCII project in ways that I’m going to activate the multimedia IP in franchising.

Nick Abrahams:

Great. Maybe just one final question, which is, you are obviously very comfortable with this world, and the way you’ve rolled off the various technology platforms that you work with and so forth, but there’s obviously organizations out there, so mainstream companies, who are looking at Web3 and metaverse and just wondering what to do. Do you have any tips for companies, whether it’s in marketing or other areas, how they might think about what a metaverse project might look like?

Sami Tauber:

I’ve done a bit of consultancy as well, for companies that are looking to activate in Web3 as well as the metaverse. It’s a very different mindset to traditional Web2 activations. First of all, you have to understand your audience. We’re talking about a decentralized audience with a very different ethos and value system.

Nick Abrahams:

That’s right.

Sami Tauber:

They value community, they value ownership, and they also value ways to become creators as well, because at the end of the day, everybody is a creator. So that is the power of the metaverse in Web3. It’s thinking about not just linear customer, consumer journeys, and thinking of non-linear ways in all the different touchpoints for how, as you could say, the marketing funnel to the sales conversion, to bring them into the world. But it has to be done in a very authentic way because now more than ever, especially Gen Z generation, are cognizant of exploitative data harvesting, Web2 algorithmic filtration bubbles, and AI recommendation systems. It just feels very inhuman and inauthentic. My advice, obviously, would be when playing in the Web3 space and the metaverse space is to be authentic, and also to find ways of involving the community, so they become active stakeholders and participating in the creation of whatever you’re building because they will feel like they’re getting more value for that.

Nick Abrahams:

It’s fantastic. Sami, you’ve been incredibly kind spending time with us today. I’d encourage everyone who’s listening to follow Sami. She is doing some truly remarkable things, so I wish you continued success. Thanks very much, Sami.

Sami Tauber:

Thank you for having me.