Tim Reed on Investment Strategies and Good Leadership
Interview with Tim Reed
In this episode we chat with the amazing Tim Reed , the President of the Business Council Of Australia, the peak body for business in Australia. The BCA comprises of the CEO’s of more than 100 of the top companies, who employ over 1 million Australian workers, including all 4 of the big banks, the major mining companies and supermarkets and the big tech players such as Google, Facebook, Twitter and Microsoft.
He is also MD of private equity firm Potentia Capital, the only Australian private equity fund focused exclusively on investments in software, tech-enabled services and technology businesses. Potentia has recently raised $350m in a fund focussed on software investments in the $50-$200m enterprise value sector.
In this wide-ranging chat, we discuss the what kind of businesses Potentia is investing in and how gut feel plays an important role in the investment decision-making process . We also discuss terrain-based business strategy versus trajectory-based strategy and the challenges that Covid has presented the economy. Finally, Tim’ BCA role means he meets some of Australia’s best leaders, so we discuss what are the traits that he sees as critical to good leadership in 2020.
Smart Dust is produced and edited by Daresay, the content specialists: https://daresay.com.au/
Hosted by Douglas Nicol, Strategy Partner, The Works: https://theworksagency.com.au/
And Nick Abrahams, Global Head of Strategy and Innovation, Norton Rose Fulbright: https://www.nortonrosefulbright.com/en-au/people/120114
Transcript
Douglas Nicol: Hello, I’m Douglas Nicol and welcomed listeners old and new to Smart Dust, the podcast that likes to look at the tech and innovation trends and people that are changing our world. Sometimes big mega-trends and sometimes, well, the ideas that sit at the fringes of science and technology.
As always, I am joined by Digital and Innovation aficionado, Mr. Nick Abrahams.
Nick Abrahams: Hello, Douglas, and hello Smart Dusters. And can I say, “aficionado?” It’s a word I’m always terrified of saying, Douglas, because I’m not a hundred percent certain how it’s pronounced, because I’m from Queensland. But it was great to hear it and I’m pleased to be an aficionado to that.
Douglas Nicol: You’re welcome. In this episode, we are delighted to be joined by Tim Reed who wears at least two career hats at the moment.
Hat number one is as president of the Business Council of Australia, the peak body for business in Australia, comprising of the CEOs of more than a hundred of the top companies in Australia.
But he’s also the managing director of private equity firm Potentia Capital. And Potentia, as many of you will know, is the only Australian private equity fund focused exclusively on investments in software and tech-enabled services.
Prior to this, Tim was the former CEO of software giant NYOB and as such, has a passion for helping build stronger businesses by marrying technology and business together to drive optimal results for clients.
Now, if that wasn’t enough, Tim was also the founding member of the IAB, the Internet Advertising Bureau, where along with other internet pioneers, he wrote the first set of advertising measurement standards for the Web.
Tim, you are very welcome to Smart Dust.
Tim Reed: Thank you. It’s great to be with you guys.
Nick Abrahams: Tim, we will talk about, I guess, the elephant in the room, which is COVID and what’s happening to Australian business. But why don’t we start off with something slightly off-topic and just talk about what’s happening with Potentia. So Potentia, the fund you’ve raised $350 million to invest in software company. Your focus is the 50 million to $200 million enterprise-value sector. Could you give us a sense of how do you, as an organization, decide what techs and businesses to invest in?
Tim Reed: Yeah, absolutely. So Potentia is a traditional private equity fund, based in Australia, investing in tech and tech-enabled businesses in Australia and New Zealand. And while we say that, and that’s a broad category, we really do focus on business-to-business software and we’ve made four investments so far out of the fund and all of those are B2B software businesses. One in mining software, one a FinTech or a payment software business, one in education software business, and one a compliance software business.
As a fund, we look for a few things. Firstly is the business model, and we really love B-to-B software. We like businesses that provide something that is mission critical to their customers, but something that is very affordable to their customers. So we like the fact that software is often the glue that helps the business operate. But when you go through the P&L of those businesses, it’s often sub 1% of the total expenses within the business.
Because of that, it makes it sticky. And it also means that there’s plenty of scope to expand the impact that that software has on a client’s business to create value for the customer and therefore value to the vendor.
We only invest in businesses that are Australia, New Zealand based. We love investing in businesses that are market leaders in their particular niche. And we really like businesses that operate in categories where the customer requirements are quite complex. So there might be something about local law around the way in which superannuation works, or there might be something about, in the local education sector, the way in which working with children and state-based regulations come into play, because we think all of those things make it harder for new competitors to enter those markets.
Nick Abrahams: It’s brilliant. And it’s great to hear that Australia has a PE fund that’s focused particularly on the B2B software space because there does tend to be a little bit of a gap in the funding for those sorts of organizations. But also focusing on those areas that Australia is great at, things like mining and healthcare.
One of the interesting things you’ve said in the past is, “Never do things that feel wrong, listen to that inner voice. If something doesn’t feel right, don’t do it.” So could you just talk a little bit about sort of what’s the role of gut-feel or intuition in investing?
Tim Reed: Well, I think they’re all a gut feeling. Intuition is really important in life. And I would say it’s in all components of life. I think as human beings, we often like to believe that we sort of make rational, reasoned decisions.
But I actually think, frequently, we make gut-based decisions. And I don’t think there’s anything wrong with that. I think that more often, if we were more in tune with how we really felt about something, we would make better decisions. I think the real magic is being able to be honest with oneself about the decision they’re making and therefore be able to challenge oneself or one another if you’re working in a team, about why that decision is being made.
So on Monday, I was in a meeting with a couple of colleagues and I just said, “Listen, I don’t feel good about this. And I’m trying to work out why I’m just not comfortable going down that path. And I think it has to do with A and B. It’s hard for me to make a compelling case, but there is something in me that it’s just prompting me to hold back.”
And one of my colleagues then said, “Huh, I think it could be A, B, C, and took off. And the conversation went down there and collectively in the end, we said, “Yeah, let’s just drop this. It’s not worth any further time.” And so I try the best I can to listen to that inner voice, to articulate the fact that it’s talking to me. And then as much as I can, throw it out to both myself and to others, to try and probe as to whether there is something that’s being missed in the facts but that I’m actually sort of sensing-feeling, that intuition is bringing through.
Nick Abrahams: Yeah. Malcolm Gladwell actually wrote a book called Blink, which is on exactly that same concept, which is just where you sense something’s wrong. I guess what a venture capitalist I was speaking to one stated, he said he also likes to apply the Maserati Test, which is if the founder’s got a Maserati in the garage, they’re probably not going to invest. Do you keep an eye on what the founders are driving?
Tim Reed: No, we don’t. We haven’t asked that question. But it’s also a bit different for us because the businesses that we’re buying aren’t necessarily startups, like the mining software business that we’ve invested in, in Perth, that’s a 30-year-old business and the founder’s now in his seventies and done a phenomenal job building a business. So that’s probably a little different for us.
Douglas Nicol: Tell us a bit about that mining company because I’ve read a bit about some pretty amazing laser 3D underground scanning and stuff. What kind of use cases does the software undertake?
Tim Reed: Yeah. So the business is called Micromine and it is a general mine-planning software, is the overall category. And that means the software helps a minor through the lifecycle of a mine. So everything from exploration to the construction of the mine, to the production phase of the mine. And the company has several products, but it’s lead product effectively maps an ore body, and therefore enables a minor to determine A, the value of the ore body, so whether a project should go ahead or not. And then B, if it does go ahead, how to extract the ore body to maximum value. And so it’s pretty cool to the day-to-day sort of lifeblood operations of a mine, particularly in the exploration phase. But as I say, right through the mine life cycle.
Douglas Nicol: And how important is the uniqueness of that software at a global level when you’re deciding whether you invest or not? Are there lots of other people doing similar things, or is it more the quality of the team you’re looking at?
Tim Reed: This is an interesting one because I said up-front, often the businesses that we look to invest in have some sort of local compliance angle or something like that, that creates a barrier to entry. This one does not. So Micromine is one of about six players in the general mine-planning category. It’s a truly global business. So about 30% of its revenue comes from Australia, the rest comes from overseas.
It is, as I say, one of six, and there are several that are a bit bigger than Micromine, but they’re all in sort of the same rough-size category. The way the software works, it’s used by geologists. Geologists will sort of learn one piece of software and we often see this in B2B software, and then will frequently have a preference for that software throughout their career. At once, that software is chosen for a given mine site. And it is generally by the mine site, not for a global minor overall. Then the data starts to get input into that software through the lifecycle of the mine. And then it becomes more and more valuable and the barriers to switching become greater. Micromine has real strength in Australia. We have real strength in Russia and through Central Asia, and they’re all pretty exciting mining markets. And then there are competitors that tend to have geographic strength in other parts of the world.
Douglas Nicol: And Tim you’ve… I mean, you’re across a number of different technologies in the investments you’ve already made, so ed tech, health tech, mining tech. Technology moves very fast these days, I guess, how do you stay in touch with development? Are there sort of people you follow on Twitter, their newsletters? I mean, I know that you’re an avid Smart Dust listener on the podcast, but there may be other podcasts that you listen to. How do you keep in touch with what’s happening?
Tim Reed: Yeah, it’s a great question, and to be honest, I think it’s something that we all struggle with because there is so much happening than keeping in touch with on multiple fronts for different companies becomes more and more challenging. I’m someone who learns really well by discussing things with people and the luxury of the role that I’m in is that there are CTOs in each of the businesses and each of them have their own sources.
So I have actually found that the best thing for me to do is to maintain those strong relationships and to, in a sense, use those people to help me keep in touch with things. So I’ll often ask one of them, “Hey, what’s new? What are you looking at? What are you thinking about? What have you read recently that’s of interest,” and so on. And so I know that’s probably a really unsatisfactory answer because I can’t give you a list of here are the three things that must be done, but I’ve just found over time that it’s a more effective way for me to keep in contact with the things that are particularly relevant to our businesses.
Nick Abrahams: One of the big discussion points over the last few years, possibly to the point of overhyping has been quantum computing. Do you have a point of view of the potential impact of Quantum on business?
Tim Reed: I do. So I think this gets back to that Bill Gates quote, “We often overestimate the impact of technology in the next two years and underestimate it in 10.” And I think Quantum is one of those technologies could really easily fit that bill. I think the impact in the short term is going to be negligible because there are many things that need to be put in place for Quantum to start to have any practical use and real impact.
Once it hits though the impact will be material and like all technologies, Quantum can be something that could be used for good or for bad. So once Quantum is available, for example, the ability for a hacker to be able to break almost every form of security that we have in our traditional, if you like, current generation technologies, is very real, and that’s obviously very scary, but that’s not to say that that will happen, and clearly we’ll be able to use Quantum also to protect those technologies and the data and information that is held within them.
So I’m a big believer because frankly, you just look at the exponential capability and capacity and processing capacity that Quantum brings, and you say … You just couldn’t stand back and say it’s not going to have a big impact, but I … Still listening to experts in this area, I still think we’re a distance away.
Nick Abrahams: I mean, it’s interesting to hear you talk about that concept of what are we doing with Quantum now, two years time, 10 years time, and just it’s very difficult for entrepreneurs and business owners I guess, to understand that strategy, and I think one of the things that you said about your strength is that it centers on your capability of developing and driving strategy, particularly in marrying technology and business. And I know you’re a strong sort of follower of John Hagel, the Deloitte consultant based in Silicon Valley, who’s written about terrain based strategy versus trajectory based strategy. And could you just talk a little bit about those two different strategic approaches?
Tim Reed: Yeah, absolutely. And you’re right, I do, John is one of those people who I follow and read. So he made the observation that most of the tools that many of us as business leaders were taught to use to develop strategy were good in their day, but not working anymore, and he stood back and had to think about this. And he described those tools and I’m talking about Porter’s 5 Forces, about SWOT analysis, about core competencies, et cetera, as terrain based.
So he says the problem with them is they assume that the ground that you’re standing on is stable, that there’s a fixed terrain. Which was fine for businesses for many years, but in a time of disruption where the biggest competitive threats to most businesses, threats that they don’t necessarily see right now, then you don’t have stable terrain, you actually have very unstable terrain. And so the challenge becomes how do you develop strategy for a business in an environment of unstable terrain?
And he came up with the concept of trajectory based thinking and trajectory based strategy, and what that says is start by listing all of the mega trends that you believe are going to shape the world over the next 10 years. And so Quantum could be one, autonomous vehicles could be one, personalized medicine could be one, et cetera. And ask yourself the question how will that mega trend impact the industry that we’re in today, that our business is in?
And it’s not how will it impact our business, but how will it impact the industry? And that forces you to take the broader perspective on what the industry delivers to a customer and how that will change and evolve. And he said, “All right, well given that, determine which three or four of these mega trends you think are going to have the biggest impact on your industry and plot out what you think that impact will be.
And you might end up with three or four different scenarios, and that’s fine, focus on the one that you think is most likely. Then come back to today and ask yourself if that’s where we think the industry will be in 10 years time, what are the two, three, maximum four things that we have to do this year to prepare for that future? And then 12 months later do the same exercise again, and do it again and do it again, and don’t build a 10 year plan because the one thing you know is your view on that future state won’t be right, but just keep asking yourself what are the things that you need.”
And what that will mean is you build an organization that starts to build the core foundational elements that are going to position it to be able to win in that future world and it’s I think incredibly powerful. There’s a few simple things in there that really work. Why 10 years? John Hagel would say, “Well, there’s no magic to 10 years except that most people in the room will not imagine that they’re going to be in the room in 10 years time.” And actually what that does is free them up to think openly and expansively.
Nick Abrahams: Right.
Tim Reed: They’re not sort of saying something like, “Well yeah, that’s all fine. I’d love to something something big data, but we don’t have the budget for it, so why are we bothering talking about it?” Which is what happens in a 12 month, 24 month sort of three, five year plan.
Nick Abrahams: Tim, is it difficult in the time of a global pandemic to be trajectory based, to be really visionary, or do you think companies are going to retreat back to terrain based simply because it feels lower risk and they really don’t know what the future holds. Do you have a view on that?
Tim Reed: I think it’s even more important to be trajectory based. I think one of the things that we’ve seen through the pandemic is an acceleration of trends rather than a dialing back. So you look in Australia and we’ve had all of the capability to work remotely for years, all of a sudden it’s the new norm and businesses aren’t going to go back to the way in which they were operating four or five months ago.
I don’t think consumers are going to move from online shopping and ordering groceries online to clothing, back to going into department stores the way they used to. So I think all of those trends that we’ve seen the pandemic drive, were an acceleration of things that were underway. They were things that we have been talking about for a period of time, tele medicine another one. It’s cheaper, better, and more efficient for doctors to have consultations, not all, but a number remotely, but the way Medicare was set up in Australia, a GP couldn’t get their Medicare payment if they did something remotely. Well, the government changed that because of the pandemic. GPs will be doing far more tele consultations going forward. So I think it actually makes it more important.
Nick Abrahams: I think you’ve really thrown yourself into, I guess, the deep end with taking on what is, I think probably the toughest gig in corporate Australia as the head of the Business Council of Australia, and so for those listeners who may not be super familiar with the BCA, it’s the peak industry association for larger businesses in Australia and comprises the chief executives of more than a hundred Australia’s biggest corporations, including all four of the big banks, the big mining companies, and the airlines.
So Tim, you’ve got a lot of stakeholders there who probably have some pretty strong views on what should be happening with the BCA and so forth, but maybe just to bring it into one thing, BCA has been very prominent, I guess, through COVID, and can you just talk a little bit about what the BCA has been doing and what you feel the impact of COVID is on Australian business?
Tim Reed: Yeah, absolutely. So look, the BCA and the team, and it’s a small team, it’s an organization of about 20 people. I’m the president, which is effectively the chairman and Jennifer Westacott is our CEO and Jennifer’s done an outstanding job and so I have the team through this period. But initially, we focused on two things. Number one was, how do we shut down the economy in the least impactful way? So this is a health crisis and very clearly the first thing as a community we needed to do, was to deal with the health crisis. And I think in this country, the government did that in those early days, very effectively. We were one of the first nations to shut down our international borders. Very quickly, I think, the government walked the community through a change plan that was very effective.
But as the prime minister at the time said, this is about lives and livelihoods and so we were very active at that point in time about saying, “How do we responsibly make sure that business is safe from a health perspective, but able to keep operating?” And that was quite different than for example, what happened in New Zealand. In New Zealand, there was a white list of activity where the government said, “You can only do these things.” In Australia, we had a black list where the government said, “You cannot do these things.” And the difference is enormous from an economic impact perspective. The estimated hit to GDP in Australia is about half what it is in New Zealand. And to give an example, there’s one of our members who is a steel manufacturer, was just very clear with Jennifer and I, that their furnaces are built to run 24/7, 365 days of the year, for 30 years.
If they’re forced to shut it down, it is a billion dollars to start it up again and right now, given the pricing of international markets, it would be very difficult to build a business case to start up again. So it was literally the question as to whether Australia was going to manufacture steel or not, was not out of the realms of that black list, white list approach. So we worked very quickly and very closely with members to understand the impact of those sorts of decisions, engaged the governments, federal, and state and we’re really pleased with the way in which they listened. And being a good listener is not something that people often associate with politicians and with governments, but I must say they really did. And because of that, from both a health perspective and an impact on GDP, we have come through this almost better than any other nation, to this moment in time. And I put that caution out there.
So that was number one, really making sure that those initial shutdowns happened as well as possible. Number two was, contributing where we could to the initial emergency response. So the government obviously came out with a number of policies, job keeper, job seeker, with loans to small businesses, et cetera. And our members were a big part of that, so the four big banks were obviously big parts of the government’s response in terms of giving people, whether they’re consumers or business customers, holidays on loans, our members who are utility companies put in place hardship plans for people who couldn’t pay their power bills, our members who are telcos gave extra data to people who are having to work from home. So there were all of these things that our members were doing to supplement and compliment the efforts of the government. And as an organization overall, we were providing feedback to the government on what we felt would happen if, let’s call it job keeper version one, versus version two, versus version three or four or five, the things that they were debating internally, what we thought would be most effective.
And again, I can only compliment them on the way in which they included and involved and listened, but let’s be very clear, they led and it was the government leading and us contributing to that. Post those initial weeks, which now seem like a bit of a blur, a lot of our work at the BCA has been around two questions. How do we really focus, on the short term, on economic activity? We have a jobs challenge and we will have a jobs challenge in Australia. We estimate that coming out of here, we’re going to need to create about two million jobs to get back towards the level of employment that we had going in. It’s taken us 10 years to create the last two million jobs and so we need to do that in two or three years to get back to anything like the trajectory that we’re on.
And that’s what, after 30 years of uninterrupted economic growth, we as Australians expect. And so obviously that challenge is less, if we can maintain more economic activity in the short term. So we’ve had 14 different work groups across our members who have been answering two questions. One, what are the immediate things that can be done to stimulate economic activity right now? And that might be planning proposals where there is something that has all of the environmental approvals, but is stuck in a local state or federal government planning process somewhere and has been for a while, but it’s fully approved. So if we could get that approval done, then people will start being employed and that investment will kick in. Through to, what things might we be thinking about in the October budget, from a tax perspective, that will stimulate more investment and have more of our members investing from their balance sheets?
And then the final part has been probably thinking more towards next May’s budget. What are the longterm structural reforms that we think will set Australia up for another two or three decades of uninterrupted economic growth? Ken Henry has been doing some work with us and he’s the former secretary of the treasury, author of the Henry Tax Review a decade ago. And he has continued to remind Jennifer and myself and our team, that it was really coming out of the recession in the late 80s, that many of the reforms were put in place that have been real drivers of those three decades of economic growth. And they have been petering out, for the last five, 10 years, we haven’t had much economic reform, productivity growth has been slowing, real wages growth has been slowing.
So he has been very much reminding us that it really took that recession for us as a nation to have the courage to put forward and put through and support the reforms that have served us so well. And that in many senses, we need them again now, we need to have that courage and to do that business has a really important role to play. One, in helping shape what those policies are, but two, in being a part of the conversation to get community buy in to those types of reforms. So it’s been busy, but that’s where we’re focused.
Douglas Nicol: And I would imagine for the next two years, certainly the foreseeable future, we’re going to live in this COVID era. Everyone talks about post COVID, but I think this is a COVID era for the next couple of years. Is that how you see it?
Tim Reed: It is. I mean, look, we all hope that the Oxford vaccine that we’ve got more recently good reviews on, et cetera, comes through, but I don’t think that’s a plan. I think we have to plan to be living in this COVID environment for a year or two. And I also think that there is every chance that the things that fit into COVID coming about, and frankly that accelerated a global pandemic, just the interrelationship of supply chain, the amount in which people travel, et cetera, those will remain present. So it’s not just going to be COVID, but I think we’ve got to be prepared for the fact that another one could come along in five or 10 years time and so I think this is the new norm.
Douglas Nicol: Another aspect of the BCAs work, you have this great mission statement, which is to help give the business community a greater voice in public policy debates about the direction of Australian society. And it’s quite interesting and maybe can I ask, why should brands have an opinion about the big issues, like maybe climate change or whatever, why should a brand be involved in that conversation?
Tim Reed: Yeah look, I think businesses and through that, the brands that they own and build, are an important part and component of the community. I don’t think there’s ever been a really successful society that hasn’t had some part of it be commercial enterprise. And what business does is bring together capital people and ideas to do things in better ways and through that, they build skill, they build capability, they create careers and livelihoods, and lift living standards. And so, the entity that sits at the center of that component of our society, call it a business, call that a brand, is a very, very important one. And what we’ve seen multiple times over the last hundred years is people have tried other systems and none of them have done as well as the liberal democracy capitalist system that we happen to enjoy and be fortunate to have in this country. So I think that business has a really important voice, by no means do I think it’s the only voice. And I think that it is really important for the government to listen to multiple stakeholders and to involve multiple stakeholders in important decisions, climate being one of them.
I think that if we are going to transition to a low carbon or zero carbon economy and the VCA’s very clear, stated goal is that we think that that is absolutely required, and that Australia should declare a formal target of net zero emissions by 2050, and that we should be driving investment to decarbonize the economy. And we believe that because we think it’s good for humanity, which has to then be a better place to build businesses. But we also believe that business can be a large part of the solution in decarbonizing. So I think it is important for business to be a part of the conversation because on that particular one, I don’t think that we’ll get there without business being on board. We’ll certainly get there far faster and at a much lower cost, if the right structures are put in place to unleash the entrepreneurial spirit, the creativity, the research capability, that business has to align behind that goal. And so to me, it only makes sense that business should be a part of that conversation.
Nick Abrahams: And Tim, just a final question for you. In your role, I guess, over your career, you’ve had the chance to meet and I guess, work with some amazing leaders. And just, could you give us a sense of what do you think the traits and the habits of a great leader in 2020?
Tim Reed: Yeah, I have. I’ve been very fortunate to meet lots of very inspiring people and some great leaders, business leaders, community leaders, political leaders. I think the first thing that it takes to be a great leader is to be able to listen really well. And I see it time and again, that the person in the room who perhaps has the most to say, the really good ones are the ones that listen better, that listen the most. That understand the thought process that someone is having to articulate something to them and are able to drive in and actually get at the essence of that perspective and that view.
I also think that great leaders are then able to operate at multiple levels. So if I think of Gladys Berejiklian as Premier of New South Wales, every time I hear her talk, I’m amazed at the way in which she can talk about social bonds, she can talk about tax and tax reform, and then she can talk about the importance of new change rooms at a local footy ground, and do it with ease. She can just do it with ease, and relate the two because this will allow us to do and so on.
And so I think really good leaders through that listening are able to understand things on the ground, but are then able to step back and broaden their perspective out and see a bigger picture. They’re able to bring the best out in other people. So they’re able to motivate, they’re able to inspire, they’re able to align, and be able to get people to opt in to following a plan, because any team is so much more powerful when the people in the team are aligned to what the goal is, and then given some freedom and autonomy to work out the best way to do their role in it.
And I think that does mean you articulate an inspiring vision. You have a clear, tangible strategy as to how you’re going to implement that vision. But when it comes down to the specific ways in which people are doing things to achieve that strategy, you also allow a reasonable amount of autonomy for people to feel like they’re in control of what they do, and that they’re able to do it in a way that they do their best. And I think really good leaders understand those different, if you like, dials and how much to use one of those dials to achieve something without compromising the others too much.
Nick Abrahams: That’s fantastic, Tim, and I feel like you’ve summarized two years of an MBA course in a couple of lines there, but it was very good. I think the story about Gladys Berejiklian, it’s very appropriate as well because you’re quite right. She has a remarkable facility to appear very natural and, doesn’t appear, she is natural with the most complex of things and the more simple thing. So look Tim, thank you very much for joining us on Smart Dust. It’s been terrific to have you on with us. Best of luck with your fantastic work with the BCA. Thank you on behalf of Australia for taking on that role. It’s a significant commitment we understand. So thank you for that. And also best of luck with [inaudible 00:06:35], and we look forward to following your continued success. Thanks very much, Tim.
Tim Reed: No, thank you. It’s great to be with you guys today.
Nick Abrahams: Thank you, Tim. And that wraps it up for this episode. As usual, there are some links and notes to peruse for this episode in the iTunes program notes. If you’ve enjoyed the episode, please rate us on your podcast platform of choice, and indeed go crazy and subscribe to Smart Dust. If you enjoyed hearing about entrepreneurship, why not listen to our September 2019 interview with the fantastic Paul X. McCarthy, technology consultant and author of Online Gravity. And in this podcast, we talk to him about Australian’s promising startup landscape and how technology has rewritten the laws of economics. From me, Douglas Nicol.
Nick Abrahams: And from me, Nick Abrahams.
Nick Abrahams: It’s goodbye.
Nick Abrahams: Goodbye. Thanks, Smart Dusters.